Cossie fuel pumps........

[tabetha]

I am not 100% convinced the chip is the WHOLE problem, but filter if more than a few years old, needs doing as they clog so easy, having cut a few open they are pretty crap to be honest, like ford oil filters!!
tabetha

[Churchy]

I am not 100% convinced the chip is the WHOLE problem, but filter if more than a few years old, needs doing as they clog so easy, having cut a few open they are pretty crap to be honest, like ford oil filters!!
tabetha

Filter was changed after it was on the rolling road last year. What sort of tests can we carry out on it before it has to go to a "specialist"

[tabetha]

As the filter was changed last year, did it SEEM any different ?, most particularly OFF BOOST, did it pick up better before boost after the filter change ?
My own car when purchased(Dec 06)had a filter dated 1992!!, but had service reciepts(that I later checked as correct) for complete services at fords!!
My car would produce almost nothing below boost but be fine on boost power wise, but as it al came at once it used to spin up even in fifth in the DRY, no doubt "helped" by the old oe dunlop D40's fitted, god they were crap!
Anyway had it on me mate daves(enerald) rollers and seemed REALLY good, sometime after when I found the filter did not look "just changed" and did it myself just to make sure the car really did come alive off boost, made a MASSIVE difference, car could actually be driven off boost, and throttle was no longer like a on/off switch.
How much if any difference did you experience ?
tabetha

[Churchy]

Well, changing it seemed to have cured the misfire I had, and that no one could find a cause of, and was told that it was full of crap, so for all I know, if its was graphed again, it might not look so bad. But I can't see it totally curing the lean problem. Off boost isn't much fun anyways, but it did seem to drive a touch better, not miles though. Still crossing my fingers for just a new chip, fuel pump, filter, and setup!

[tabetha]

It sounds from your description it is lacking fuel, so won't be expensive to put right.
tabetha

[RST-Steve]

This is gonna be the longest thread ever soon!! lol

[Mike Rainbird]

You really do talk some s*** mike.

You really do have an attitude problem :p.

As you say apt can't map w/m as they don't have the kit, dave at emerald NEVER claimed he could though, BIG DIFFERENCE.

How is that ANY difference, as APT clearly stated that they could NOT live map these customer's Cossies, direct to them :roll:

You do NOT know why they are leaning out, fuel pump and filter is ONE of many reasons why this could be the case, but it is a sensible precaution on any car around 20 years old to rewire for the sake of a few quid to have a decent starting point.

They have a generic off the shelf chip and these will ALWAYS lean out at the top end if pushed too hard.  It's not rocket science, as I said the duty cycle of the fuel injectors is mapped to a conservative boost curve.  If you push the boost beyond the designed fuelling parameters within the chip, it will obviously lean out.

To suggest it is ALWAYS the EPROM is bollocks, unless you have a mapping software in your head already installed the truth of the matter can ONLY BE YOU DON'T KNOW, you are guessing the same as other people.
I merely suggested what would be a sensible thing to do on any car even a std one with a ford eprom.

I actually agree that the fuel pump wiring and filter should be changed / checked as a starting point, I was merely pointing out to those without technical knowledge (Daz and Churchy), that they cannot simply run more boost to achieve higher power, when their cars are already leaning out.  Also, I think you will find that they both run the same software, so the fact that they are both leaning out and have similar random power curves that I have seen associated with the particular software you are so fond of slating .

I have just had to purchase a chip as the two supplied by a certain cossie god were crap, and had a hole the size of a tunnel between 1800-2500rpm, constantly I was advised live mapping is the only way to get rid of it.

Given that Daz and Chruchy are running the same manufacturues software as the one YOU had to replace, yet you're advising them to stick with the same EPROM that YOU changed and criticising me for recommending them to make a change in the same thing you have done yourself - BIZARRE!  :p

The reason why cars are mapped conservatively is due to factors such as everyone is different, and is done as a safeguard.

I actually agree with you on that .  BUT if you start pushing things above the EPROMs conservative boost levels, then things will end in tears.

To compare APT with the abilities of dave is a joke, they didn't even have the decency to appologise after trying to smash off cozmeisters bumper, with thier truly caring attitude.  You will find any tuner/mapper with critics sometimes warranted, but I go by my own eyes.

Other than you beloved Dave, I haven't seen you say a kind word about any other tuner :p .  APT are very skilled in what they specialise in, and if you don't believe that, you should try having a drive of Gary's car. It is jaw droppingly good in EVERY respect.

Live mapping is a expensive option, and in my opinion pointless unless after market ecm as the w/m is a ancient pile of dog poo, compared with systems  that were not developed for charriot racing in roman times.
tabetha

How is it expensive, as it is only ?100-?200 or so more expensive than a generic chip, is mapped to suit all the mods that you have carried out to your car and if done properly will mean that it will recoup that money in improved fuel economy and reliability (as the afr will be perfect and won't be running rich or lean), also you are likely to gain a significant amount of power in all areas.

[tabetha]

All this attack on oen person and it is I that have an attitude problem!!
I actually advised Churchy to change from the MSD chip, but I had the decency to do this in private, and not in public, don't foget you do not know what is said behind your back, by others that communicate elsewhere than on this forum.
I do not agree with you on some things, that is the nature of a forum, if YOU don't like it, you will find a switch marked "OFF".
It is complete crap that chips are designed to lean out at the top end, they may well have the timing pegged, but they are not going to be made to lean out where the ONLY place where richness is more needed than any other, but YOU don't quantify what AFR we are talking about, it may go down slightly, but will certainly NOT go lean.
Richness is used as a cooling aid.
The reason I can't get my head round some firms is because, they can through no fault of thier own, only do half a job, so unless it is 100% perfect when they have done the job, they have customers who then STILL have to go elsewhere, might it not be more sensible to go elsewhere to start with ?
I looked at a APT mapped car some weeks back a skyline, that had a problem, and was actually VERY impressed, the problme was a minor electrical problem and nothing to do with APT.
I couldn't be bothered to read the rest of your drivel, but then that is MY choice, bit like you having the same choice, but then I don't feel the need to pathetically try and belittle you, you do a fine job yourself, keep it up.
I don't try to make buddies with everybody, I don't care, I am what I am, and say it like I see it, personal choice on a public forum again.
tabetha

[Mike Rainbird]

There is so much crap going on here it is unbeleivable.
CHIPS ARE NOT NOT NOT NOT WRITTEN TO BE LEAN LEAN LEAN LEAN AT THE TOP END, this is pure coincidence, and suggests lack of pump/fuel pressure, as the most likely cause.

I agree that I would always check this first if the mileage warranted it (as in the pump / filter was old).  I would also carry out a full fuel flow check to see what the pump was producing .

But it might also be the fact that the actuator has been adjusted too high or the jets in the AMAL valve not quite right, so that the boost pressure the car is running is a few psi higher than it should be at the point it is leaning out.  This means that the EPROM is not supplying enough fuel for the boost the car is running (don't forget off the shelf chips are designed to be safe, which means conservative boost pressures in the main).  A live map would be able to adjust the fuelling to suit the boost that the turbo has been set to (providing you hadn't reached the limit of the injectors).

NO CHIP IN THE WORLD OFF THE SHELF WILL GIVE THE ABSOLUTE BEST,

TRUE

NEITHER WILL LIVE MAPPING

So if live mapping doesn't give the absolute best - WTF does :p?

As things change beyond the capacity of the live mapper to account for, same as arolling road, but these are still the best way to do it.

Such as? :p

As said if you got to certain peoples rollers they will read higher or lower, THIS CAN BE DONE DELIBERATELY, it is only a simple push of some computer keys.

True, I personally think that Dave's over-read by quite some amount given the readings I saw on the day I attended.

The most important aspect is DRIVEABILITY, and correct running FUELLING WISE.

100% TRUE - and a live map can achieve this without doubt .

You will find the make of components being suggested is often more to do with profit than anything else, as the person suggesting them will no doubt sell them, if they are honest and consider them the best that is merely thier view, may NOT be what the customer wants.

I personally will only suggest things that I believe to work correctly and have NEVER suggested anything purely for financial gain, as a happy customer comes back, a p i s s e d off one doesn't, as well as tells several others of their poor experience.

On 2 bar churchy you WILL have 350+ all else being correct.
I have 330bhp, but 150lbft@1500rpm, 330lbft@2300rpm, so VERY driveable.

On whose rollers - as you say - lots over-read?

Jamesxr4i who has just joined this site went in my car on sunday last, and was impressed at 25mph in top gear going through town, then pulling clean as a whistle, down the straight towards thetford, and said F**K me this goes, it is so much faster than anything else I have been in.
He went in a MITSUBISHI 3000 TWIN TURBO manual days before and said it was not a patch on this(cossie), which made me chuckle.

My T4 equipped car (live mapped) can do that :p.

I am not defending APT but running lean at the top end, my first GUESS is fuel flow problem of correct(afr) elsewhere, I would do filter then if on original pump that as well, for the sake of ?70 or so.
ANY off the shelf chip is a best guess, but most are based on previous cars with the same mods, so will certainly be near, certainly not leaning just at the top end.

I would guess that the duty cycle of the injectors isn't matched to the boost it is running.

The map is VERY SIMPLE to understand, it has a base map for fuelling(and ignition) the more boost(ADIABACTIC) it reads(via MAP) the more it RETARDS the timing, due to COMPRESSION RATIO increase and burning rate increase.
It also at the same time ADDS more fuel to the increased air(oxygen) supply to keep the AFR where the chip writer thinks it should be, and work the best.

So the chip writer has no idea where the boost has been set, whereas a live mapper does .

Thus if fuelling correct apart from top end, it is more than likely a fuel flow problem, they cab of course be written this way but are not unless the person writing them does not like being in business.
A "set up"  is different to different people, it is totally pointless going to someone for a "set up" if they cannot alter anything that needs altering.
Most chips due to the popularity of the cossie will be near enough so that it may just need at most a simple fuel pressure increase/decrease, more often than not is it is a CHECK of the AFR is all that is needed to confirm all correct, under full load which is where it matters more than most.

That is not true - if the boost curve has not been set up correctly to match the fuelling, then it can be adjusted on the actuator and the AMAL valve jetting to try and match it to the fuelling.  The fuel flow can be checked to see if this is correct and possibly adjusted / improved with either changing the filter / pump / wiring if it is down on flow to what it should be.  The fuel pressure can be checked to make sure it is correct to what the mapper designed the chip for and adjusted.

My one hits 330bhp 330lbft at 1.4 BAR, but mostly down to the headwork at ?275, the best money I have ever spent result wise.
tabetha

On whose rolling road :p ?

[Mike Rainbird]

All this attack on oen person and it is I that have an attitude problem!!

It's the way you reply and respond to your advice being challenged :p

I actually advised Churchy to change from the MSD chip, but I had the decency to do this in private, and not in public, don't foget you do not know what is said behind your back, by others that communicate elsewhere than on this forum.

I realise that, but no reference to this is made in your advice .

I do not agree with you on some things, that is the nature of a forum, if YOU don't like it, you will find a switch marked "OFF".

But if I think you are giving advice that will potentially steer people away from what I personally feel is correct, then obviosuly I feel I have to give people another option to chose.

It is complete crap that chips are designed to lean out at the top end, they may well have the timing pegged, but they are not going to be made to lean out where the ONLY place where richness is more needed than any other, but YOU don't quantify what AFR we are talking about, it may go down slightly, but will certainly NOT go lean.

I can't find any post on this thread that states that the chips are designed to lean out  .

Richness is used as a cooling aid.

Agreed

The reason I can't get my head round some firms is because, they can through no fault of thier own, only do half a job, so unless it is 100% perfect when they have done the job, they have customers who then STILL have to go elsewhere, might it not be more sensible to go elsewhere to start with ?

Which is why I always suggest a live map as the best course of action for getting the most from your car .

I looked at a APT mapped car some weeks back a skyline, that had a problem, and was actually VERY impressed, the problme was a minor electrical problem and nothing to do with APT.

I bet that came hard to acknowledge that .

I couldn't be bothered to read the rest of your drivel, but then that is MY choice, bit like you having the same choice, but then I don't feel the need to pathetically try and belittle you, you do a fine job yourself, keep it up.
I don't try to make buddies with everybody, I don't care, I am what I am, and say it like I see it, personal choice on a public forum again.
tabetha

I'm not belittling you, I am highlighting the points I disagree with you about and providing clarification for the reasons behind them.  Had you responded likewise, then we could have a decent technical discussion on how best for Daz and Churchy to proceed, but no, you have to claim everyone else is talking shit, but then I'm not the one that thinks you can get 700bhp out of light blues with batch firing (when batch firing gives you LESS duty cycle) .

[tabetha]

Mike we are not going to see eye to eye, I think you are have a highly inflates opinion of yourself, and make no secret of that, things like this only serve to make me think my opinion of you is the correct one.
I have used three rolling roads, two of whom YOU say are accurate.
I am not going to waste any more of my time answering your drivel, I DO have a life.
If you can't work out which parametres change beyond the mappers/machine capabilities you are not quite as clever as you think are you.
Engine wear, differing fuel qualities are but two basic ones.
Please don't agree with anything I have said, I find it insulting.
tabetha

[Mike Rainbird]

So you are saying a alternator and power steering take 30-40 bhp what complete crap, don't forget your transmission losses as well, so a 204 bhp cossie engine then by your suggestion would put out 204 -40 for steering and alternator, down to 164 already odd as they make 159/160 wheels, only 5 bhp transmission losses ?, oh I forgot about the water pump as well.
Some small engine cars have less than 50 to start with and power all these devices as well as air con, your calculations leave them with a NEGATIVE, but still they do 75/80mph, if they manage this on no power they really are ahead of the game, whoever gave you that figure is most likely now dead from the drugs they were taking at the time.

The flywheel figures that manufacturers quote is a figure with all ancilliaries connected.  The flywheel figure that you get from an engine dyno like Harveys, is a figure without these.

A T4 is not in a million years going to be as tractable low down as a turbine that is smaller, basic common sense and physics, mine will pull away from 850rpm in top gear without hesitation, I just choose not to as not needed, yes you have a gearbox and by your own admission need to drop gears, you MISSED the whole point that you proved, it is about FLEXIBILITY.
The T4 was so good they fitted it on all the cosworth range.

My car will pull cleanly from idle in 5th - it's nothing to do with turbo size, it is how well the car is mapped.  Obviously the boost threshold is still rubbish compared to a T3, but it will still drive cleanly (albeit slowly) through the lower revs.

If you wanted to stir the box all the time why not just buy a type r, which si a far better built car than the cossie ?
My best is 34mpg and that was not taking it stupidly easy, but then I did not buy it to do mega mpg, the weber marelli is a piece of crap compared to modern ecu's, good in it's day, but todays climate is NOT it's day.
May be the reason I have just placed and order for EMERALD K3, and looking at LPG kits for even more power, 119 OCTANE, so more power more economy and gas at the farm at 32p a litre, even better.
tabetha

That's good for a Cossie .

[tabetha]

Actually Mike despite APT trying to bust off cozmeisters bumper, and not even having the decency to appologise I have sent  three jap owners thier way.
I don't care about anybody with a different opinion, but I am NOT geared towards profit, why do you think people go elswhere other than you ?
The reason I did not put any referrence to MSD chips is because I did not feel it was warranted, as others have seemingly had sucess with them, ok well after a ?500 live map anyway.
I am not a wannabe film star, with bleached teeth, what you see is what you get.

[Mike Rainbird]

Mike we are not going to see eye to eye, I think you are have a highly inflates opinion of yourself, and make no secret of that, things like this only serve to make me think my opinion of you is the correct one.

Are you talking about me or you, as seriously it sounds like yourself .  I honestly couldn't care less what you or anyone else thinks of me, I just feel it is unfair to mislead people and so will jump in where I think this is happening.

I have used three rolling roads, two of whom YOU say are accurate.

Any chance of seeing all three figures?

I am not going to waste any more of my time answering your drivel, I DO have a life.

Yes, and that life consists of preaching like what you say is gospel .

If you can't work out which parametres change beyond the mappers/machine capabilities you are not quite as clever as you think are you.
Engine wear, differing fuel qualities are but two basic ones.
Please don't agree with anything I have said, I find it insulting.
tabetha

I just wanted to see what things you thought couldn't be corrected for, and on most ECUs, that is correct (although modern ECUs can adapt to both examples you give).  On Cossies the map will be only correct for that particular time in the engine's life cycle that it has been mapped.  However, a generic chip isn't even 100% right at that time....

[tabetha]

No, YOU can't see the graphs, but others(on here) have, I don't know if any others than Harvey Gibbs would be good enough, how is your first engine by the way ?, you've broken how many parts ?
I don't care about bhp, just driveability, so don't go seeking mega figures, or spend fortunes, for a car that I then don't use, mainly bcause it is broken.
People in life make thier OWN choices, THEY may choose to listen or not, the answers may be PROFIT GEARED or not, personal choice.
tabetha

[Churchy]

I always take in what people say, and make my own choices. I rely on other peoples opinions in this field, as I don't know enough to know what I need on my own. Both Tabs and Mike give very sound advice, and I've known Mike long enough to know he wouldn't bullshit for his own personnel gain. For a start, he doesn't need my money, secondly, he has helped me several times in the past off his own back.

Now why don't you 2 kiss and make up?

[RST-Steve]

I don't care about anybody with a different opinion, but I am NOT geared towards profit, why do you think people go elswhere other than you ?

Thats a bit harsh! All i can say is that Mike has never steared me wrong either, and has always done his best to sort out the problems i seem to give him everytime i buy something  .......... sorry about that Mike!!!  lol

[Daz-cos]

im not gonna take sides as its bad for the club to have in fighting over opinions. i will only say that mike has always given me sound advice, and has steered me in the right direction. i also know that he has no interest in profiting from people as he has enough cash already.

equally tabs has helped me sort out a few niggly probs on my car for nothing, for which i am mot grateful.

so can we all please kiss and make up

[tabetha]

I am not kissing and making up, if I don't like someone I don't Like someone, I am sure Mike has the same opinion to which he is entitled.
As for being geared towards profit, maybe I am WRONG ?, but that is the way I see it, others as above have thier own opinion.
I should not have to come on here and answer months old things that someone else considers wrong, and they let build up to this extent.
Anyone who has a different opinion should say so at the time.
Neither should I have to prove every point I make, it is for OPINIONS nothing more, not scientific facts.
I have respect for Mike R, just don't like the man.
tabetha